Anastasia
Thank you for coming in and for agreeing to answer all my questions.

Elizabeth Lewis
I’m very happy to be here

Anastasia
I’m very excited

Elizabeth Lewis
Thank you for extending the offer

Let’s talk a bit about how you got into your career. Tell me where did you grow up and what kind of stuff were you into as a kid?

Elizabeth Lewis
So I grew up the youngest with three older brothers, and we just had a pretty free childhood and we were able to just explore. My mom is a bit of a maker. She’s always sewed, so she made all my clothes for me growing up, and so I learned to sew from a very young age, but I hated it at the time. I hated that she made my clothes and I didn’t have store-bought clothes.

Anastasia
Right

Elizabeth Lewis
But I, I think generally I grew up in a pretty creative house and before I even started school, I was telling everyone I was going to be a carpenter because our next door neighbour, he was a retired engineer and he had a workshop in the back of his house and he would show me how to make things.
And so I sort of always pictured that I would do something like that. And then throughout my childhood and teens, I thought, oh, maybe I’ll be an architect or maybe I’ll be a fashion designer, or maybe I’ll be an artist. But I always felt that that’s where I would land. And I think I had a really supportive family that just felt that you should do whatever you want to do in a lot of ways. So I felt really privileged in that sense. Um, So that’s sort of my thinking and my shaping around that. And I think that when I was wrapping up and finishing school I just stumbled across the industrial design course and I thought, that sounds pretty interesting and pretty aligned to what I want to do, and I’ll give that a go. And that’s sort of how I landed into this as a discipline.

Anastasia
So you basically decided to study industrial design?

Elizabeth Lewis
Yeah.

Anastasia
And what was your first job after uni or during uni or?\

Elizabeth Lewis
Yeah, so when I was at uni, I kind of fluctuated between being a really great student and being a not so great student. So I knew that I definitely had strengths within the course and things that I was really good at. And there were definitely aspects of the degree that perhaps weren’t my strengths. And so as I made my way through the degree, I actually wasn’t really too sure what I was going to do or where I was going to land at the end. And then I went through my honours project and had a pretty good time, and that was a really great project in the end, and it was really well received, but it, I didn’t really know.
And so my first job out of uni, I actually worked for a packaging design company, it was essentially they just made cardboard boxes. And they used to work with various marketing teams um, and they had a small, little production facility in Silverwater. And I would go in there and I would essentially just make all the cut files for all of the packaging and then do all the marketing overlays. So graphic design applications onto the cut files for the cardboard packaging. And it was a pretty mundane job.
So I didn’t stay there for very long. But I think it, like any job, you sort of learn some stuff. And then in the meantime I’d been applying for new grad positions at big corporations because I really thought, oh, maybe I’ll go and work at ResMed or go and work at a big corporation and design medical devices.
And I ended up getting offered a position at BOC, which is a gas company. And I worked through various iterations of jobs there. And I ended up staying there probably for way too long. So I was there for five years and completely, I guess in a lot of ways deviated from a core design role. So when I think of like my childhood ambitions to be a designer and to do really creative stuff. And then by the time you start earning money and you start working and you. I think I just got wrapped up in this machine and it became a very corporate job and I did some project management and some engineering and marketing and a bunch of stuff.
Like, they pretty much just throw you through the various parts of the business. And I became pretty unsatisfied and really unhappy with where things were going. And I was always really good at writing and critical thinking. So I started a Master’s of Design in research while I was at BOC. And I started researching COPD, which is a lung condition, and I partnered with a research centre at the university. So it was a hybrid Master’s research that was designed with a research centre in cardiovascular health.

Anastasia
Wow.

Elizabeth Lewis
I sort of researched all of these different parameters around health and this particular disease, and then designed a product that responded to that particular problem.
So it was very much still following an industrial design route where you find a problem and then you try and solve it through a design outcome. And it was through that process that I was like, no, I need to get back on the industrial design train. And I knew Tim, who’s the director at Tilt and he had just purchased Tilt as a business and was sort of starting it up and I just reached out and was like,
how do I get in?
And pretty much started when Tilt was born. Really.

Anastasia
Cool.

Elizabeth Lewis
Yeah.

Anastasia
So did you start off in Tilt already jumping into doing public art projects?

Elizabeth Lewis
No. So public art wasn’t really a defined sector at Tilt at the time. So Tilt was sort of finding its feet in terms of what I guess the value add of industrial design within the built environment was really going to be.
And it was born from One Central Park, which is the key. The key project of the business. That was sort of the founding project. And so there was a real sort of exploration around how industrial designers add value and what our skill sets contribute to architects. And so it was really very much architecturally driven as a business in the very early days, like the first three to five years were really around architectural collaborations.
I think we sort of say that we stumbled into public art by accident in a lot of ways. So there was a landscape architect who was friends with Tim and he had some public art jobs. And as part of just general conversations, we’re like, yeah, we can do some art stuff.
And so we just started collecting these sorts of arts projects along the way.
But there wasn’t a really carved out space necessarily, or a particular strategy around what public art was going to look like. It was very organic and very just haphazard in a lot of ways and a lot of experimentation and. Public art was great for the team as the team was growing as well, because it didn’t have specific functional requirements that the architecture stuff had.
Like, it wasn’t a door that had to move and had certain parameters. It was like, it’s just an object. And so it was a lot of testing happened in the early public art division space.

Anastasia
Didn’t you also do that huge LED panel at One Central Park with the French artist?

[Image: One Central Park]

Elizabeth Lewis
Yeah the Heliostat. So that was with Jean Nouvel and Yann Kersale was the artist. And that was a hybrid architectural public art work. So that was the very first public art project. And 10 years down the track. We do reflect on that project and. It is sort of still a really underlying way that we look at how architecture and public art can speak to each other, because that just epitomizes where the architect had come up with a functional piece of architecture, which was the Heliostat has a very functional application, and then the developer wanted to actually use that as a canvas for the public art to offset his development costs.
So he is like, well, if I’m investing all this money in this cantilever structure, if we apply art to it, then I get extra from that. So it’s a really interesting, as a case study, but yes, that is the first, the first artwork in a lot of ways.

Anastasia
Mm-hmm. So how about now, how do the public art projects come to you?

Elizabeth Lewis
They come in a, lot of different. Through a lot of different avenues. So we have artists that we build relationships with and we always try and start every project that we’re going to work deeply with an artist on. It’s very much trying to understand their core practice and what they’re hoping to achieve by entering into the public art space.
So we get some work through artists who have been specifically commissioned to do work. We get work through Open EOIs where we might partner and pitch with an artist. We work with developers and with landscape architects and architects. So there’s various different ways than we get work directly from government organisations like Health Infrastructure through a tendering process. So yeah, it really varies and the scale and complexity of projects really varies as well.

Anastasia
Okay. Who are usually your clients once you get a project?

Elizabeth Lewis
Yeah it’s interesting, it depends on how the contract is set up. But often we are actually novated to a builder. So it sort of depends who you see your client being, but I guess we probably see our client as actually a group of stakeholders. So yeah, as the project moves through the various phases, it’s often the builder who holds the contract and would essentially be the client.
But we definitely see the actual client being the artist and whoever the commissioning party is. So if the commissioning party is a government organisation or a developer or whoever that higher up stakeholder is, they’re our key clients. And the builder’s just someone that we have to satisfy and when we just work with them to get the job done, essentially.

Anastasia
And how do you find the artists? Do you usually start with an artist and then build a project or do you have a project and then find an artist?

Elizabeth Lewis
It’s usually either we find a project opportunity and then partner with a specific artist. So we might have someone in mind that we think, yeah, we think that artist would be really good for that particular project. But often with those situations, we actually have to pitch for the job. So it’s going into competitive competition where you’re often up against other artist teams and then you work through a concept development phase, which can be quite lengthy and quite time consuming.
But we make an equal investment with the artist to give it a go to try and win the job. There’s other circumstances where a client, through a public art curator has identified an opportunity and identified an artist, but the artist might not have a team or their own skill sets. They don’t have the ability to actually deliver the work.
So sometimes we’re actually brought in by another stakeholder to help support the artist and get them up and running on the project. There’s not sort of a, a preferred way of working, but I would definitely say that we are always trying to approach with a really deep understanding of the artistic practice so that we can understand the intent.
So where we’re brought in on a project and we don’t necessarily have a relationship with an artist, we try and go back a few steps to actually go back to where the seed of the idea came about so that we can get to the bottom of why certain decisions have been made so that technically we can help direct the project in a way that leads to a feasible outcome.
So often we find that artists creatively will make lots of decisions, which are often great, but then they can’t be made or it’s not the right material choice or it’s not really suitable for the particular application that they’re suggesting that they might use it for. So that’s kind of where we step in, but we can’t really help them to make decisions if we don’t understand their intent. So although we’re not artists, what I do try and really work through with an artist is, well, what are you actually trying to say?
Because often what they’re trying to say is actually linked to a material outcome. And so you have to understand those parameters in order to help them make decisions.

Anastasia
Yeah. So if an artist wants to make a public artwork, but they don’t have the skills to make it happen, can they reach out to Tilt and be like, Hey, I have this project and I want to make something.

Elizabeth Lewis
Yeah, absolutely. So I think we’re definitely there to fill that gap. Like that’s sort of where we step in and we can guide them through the overarching process. I think we also spend a lot of time trying to understand an artist’s appetite for actually doing a public work. Because it’s… it’s hard. It is actually really hard. And so a lot of artists who want to enter into the space, they’re often very ambitious artists by nature. And they want their work to be seen at a much greater platform. And they want to express their ideas in a different scale and with a different budget and with different opportunities that public art offers that you don’t get necessarily in an institution or in a gallery.
So I sort of understand the driver for artists to want to go into public art, but I’d also say that you do need a really resilient personality and a practice that meets that. That enables you to work through a lot of the challenges that come about.
So there’s lots of I guess for an artist that doesn’t have any experience in the public art space, there’s lots of public EOIs that you can start to get experience in pitching and understand the process and work through all those kind of early parameters. But there’s also lots of things that you could probably do at a small scale like temporary works and other ways that you can start to gain experience. Because once you get a couple under your belt, whether they’re big or small, you really start to get an insight into what it actually takes to do these projects.
And the budgets sound enormous at the outset, but by the time you get through all the fabrication costs and the cost with actually making it and installing it, it’s not necessarily, it’s not actually about the money. I think for an artist, it’s more about what they can say with that platform and what that looks like.

Anastasia
Mhm.

Elizabeth Lewis
Yeah. So I would say public art’s not for every artist, but if you have a desire to go into public art, it’s definitely great and there’s lots of people like Tilt, who can help support you through that process. I don’t think that anybody, like any stakeholder would expect an artist to actually manage a project. There’s lots of support networks in place to help artists so that these opportunities can be authentic in a lot of ways.

Anastasia
That’s good to know. Yeah. I just recently spoke to an artist who told me that public art is by far the hardest medium to work with. Yeah. Because of all the little things that go into it.

Elizabeth Lewis
Yeah. There’s just a lot of constraints and there’s a lot of stakeholders.

Anastasia
Mm-hmm

Elizabeth Lewis
And so we try and protect the artist a little bit from a lot of the things that happen behind the scenes. We are really trying to act as that translation between the artistic intent and what they’re trying to say and then how that gets delivered. But it’s quite complex. And the other thing about public art is it’s, the timelines are really long. So it’s often a two year investment, if not longer, by the time you go through the conceptualization process, all the way through the making and the delivery.
But I, I know artists who have contractually managed the whole project by themselves and they’ve learned a lot of skills and they’ve done a lot of things. But yeah, I think that that’s very much an experience and, and personality thing as well. Yeah.

Anastasia
So what kind of skills have you had to learn in this process?

Elizabeth Lewis
That is a fantastic question. I think when I started out, like even if I just think three or four years back when, I mean, I, I think that I could probably say that public art really stepped out and, and became its own thing probably about four or five years ago. And I think of how far Tilt’s come in that amount of time through just public art.
And I think the one thing that I have learned is to take the time to really listen to an artist, first and foremost. Because without understanding them and to develop that relationship, it becomes a very personal relationship that you develop with an artist because the projects run for so long and I have to have that trust with them. They have to be able to trust me and I have to be able to understand what they’re thinking, what they’re trying to achieve, and what their non-negotiables are. So that we can help navigate the process together. So I think, yeah, I’ve always admired artists but I’ve definitely developed a very strong understanding around what motivates them and how we can help more closely.
I think more than anything, my knowledge of contracts and how projects are delivered, compared to five years ago. I mean, I can read any type of contract set up now, and I’m not surprised for anything. Whereas I think five years ago, like it was just all new, you know, and I just would read a contract and like, I don’t know what I’m looking at or what any of this means. Whereas I look now and I’m like, yeah, I understand everything.

Anastasia
Right

Elizabeth Lewis
And I, I think the other thing that I’ve just had to learn is that we play a really critical role in helping people understand the technical parameters. And so we really sit as a middleman between all the stakeholders in terms of what we think we can do technically. And we often have to present that information back to stakeholders in lots of different ways.
Whereas, back in the beginning, we would’ve just issued one set of documentation and expected that everybody could understand what we were trying to express. Whereas now we really break things down and it’s very audience specific in terms of how we explain design detail and how we explain the decisions that we’re making and how we walk people through that decision making process. It’s quite specific now.

Anastasia
Wow. You’re almost like a translator then.

Elizabeth Lewis
Yeah, I definitely would say that we are a translator. Yeah. Yeah. I think that that’s a perfect way of describing our role within the process, for sure. And we just facilitate. More and more as well, we’re starting to help artists to actually partner with different other practitioners. You know, putting artists together with ceramic technicians so that an artist can actually go through a ceramic making process with someone and they learn new skills and they get mentored through a whole new material palette that perhaps they wouldn’t have been able to explore at a studio level.
But this public art opportunity has provided that, and so we’re really trying to form this network of relationships where artists are just expanding their own skill sets and we just facilitate that process. And we help everyone through the technical parameters of how things are going to fit together and what their structural requirements are and the engineering parameters and we facilitate that process. But creatively, it’s just providing as much rope for an artist and the team to kind of explore.

Anastasia
Mm-hmm.
Considering that many artists have never done public art and so they don’t really know the considerations involved, can you shed some light on things we mightn’t have thought of when we’re thinking of a public art project or a proposal and how much convincing you have to do of one party or another of feasibility and other things?

Elizabeth Lewis
Yeah, I think I would now sort of going through so many cycles of projects. I think that it’s twofold. I think when I read an artist brief, now I’m really looking at, well, what’s the site requirement, who is the actual audience for the work and what is the curator trying to elicit from an artist by curating and commissioning a work, like what’s the actual purpose of the artwork within this space?

Anastasia
Mm-hmm.

Elizabeth Lewis
And then when I’m thinking about artists that might then work within that framework, they have to have a really strong either connection to that place, or they have to have a strong conceptual link between their own practice and what that brief is asking of them. ’cause if they don’t have that strong connection, then the public artwork, it’s not going to anchor to where it is. It, it needs to have that really strong sense of, well that artist make sense for this place. And the story that they’re telling has a really good link into the brief. And so I think when curators are selecting concepts, I think that that’s something that they really key in on,
and they really go, well, yeah, this makes a lot of sense like in that kind of way.
So that’s when I’m reading a brief initially and talking to artist through that first concept development phase, it’s really about trying to understand that. It’s like, what does your, what’s your practice and how can you pull out those strands of understanding to really relate to the place and to the brief.
and then I think in terms of an artist understanding what’s actually feasible, I think that that’s where there’s been too many constraints put on artists similar, I guess, to what we see, what happens in an architectural sense is that an architect is somewhat burdened by what they think a builder can build. And so they design to the parameters of building as opposed to designing to their dreams.
And so I think the same, in some sense can be said to artists where you don’t actually want to constrain too much in those early phases. You just go wild. And then we help to curate the work back technically to something that can be delivered.
But again, it just speaks to like, we have to understand what you’re trying to say so that we can help you to make decisions. But I don’t think an artist needs to, from the outset, be super aware of all the considerations.
I think that as you sort of get into a project, what an artist kind of needs to be really open to though is how the work will evolve and change, because it will be influenced by the site. Particularly, because we’re often conceptualizing in a building that’s not yet been built or a place that doesn’t yet exist. And so you’ll have design documentation from an architect or landscape architect that’s developing in parallel to the artwork. And so the artwork will have to shift and change to accommodate where it’s actually going or where new information’s being found about the site, where things might need to change position. And where we thought we were over at this location and we were talking to this particular aspect of the work, it’s actually shifted somewhere else completely.
So there needs to be an openness in terms of the physical outcomes in a lot of ways and how they shape and change.
The other thing that we find that artists aren’t familiar with at all is CAD software. So 3D modeling or anything like that. And so there is often a digitalization of their work, which some find really interesting. And then other artists are like, this is really strange. But through creating digital versions of their work, there’s different ways that we can understand how the work’s going to operate or look or feel, that I think is really exciting for an artist to be a part of. But it just adds another layer in terms of we are constrained by those kinds of aspects of a project.

Anastasia
Do you build everything in-house?

Elizabeth Lewis
No. So we are not a fabricator. So a typical process for us is we will design everything. So we work in a number of different software programs and everything goes through a design process. Particularly in the art space, we do a lot of experimentation with materials and samples and prototyping. And then we go through this really detailed process where every nut and bolt gets designed in, and then we create packages of drawings.
And for an artist, we go through this process of concept design, detailed design. And then we have a pack called “approved for tender,” which is essentially a pack of documents and drawings, which then we go out to fabricators to seek quotes and to seek feedback, fabrication feedback. And then we actually manage fabricators through that process.
But what that enables us to do is we’re not constrained to any particular material or manufacturing process. And it really means that artists can then use mixed materials. So we can have elements that are glass and then we can have ceramics, and then we can have metal features. And it doesn’t really matter because then it all comes back through Tilt and we assemble and work through all of those processes to create the artwork. But we’re essentially managing fabricators externally.

Anastasia
is it hard to find the right fabricators and the right collaborations for something like public art?

Elizabeth Lewis
You do need to find the right fabricator. Some fabricators are really open to artists. They’ll open their doors and they’ll say, come on in. And they’re happy to work with an artist because some of the processes do actually need to be, the hand of the artist needs to be in the work. So we work with some foundries where the artist will actually go in and they’ll make the clay molds and then they’ll be there throughout the whole process of actually making the work.
Yeah, you do need to create a really deep network of fabricators and some fabricators are great for certain aspects of work, but you wouldn’t go there for a particular thing and vice versa. But yeah, our network of fabricators is across Australia and overseas as well, so we kind of, yeah, we know enough now to be able to work through all the parameters.

Anastasia
Yeah.
Can you talk me through some of the non-negotiable considerations that are crucial in public art in contrast to sculptures and installations in white cube exhibition spaces?

Elizabeth Lewis
Yeah. I guess the biggest thing for public art is a typical lifespan is 25 years. So material parts and fabrication methodologies are dictated by durability and maintenance and how they’re going to perform in the environment over time. And some things you sort of can predict how they’re going to age and so they might patina over time and, and the surface texture will change and that actually becomes part of the work. And that’s sort of anticipated by the artist.
But typically what we’re trying to reduce is any long-term maintenance issues, and manage all the risks. So that’s where our material palette kind of starts, is what’s the most durable approach for this particular outcome. And I think that that’s where it’s a bit more difficult for artists that are used to working in somewhat of a, a ephemeral kind of way, or where they work will respond to environmental conditions over time and that’s part of their conceptual framework. It’s more difficult for them in this space because they’re trying to show change over time in a different way. So that’s quite interesting in a lot of ways, but I think more challenging for those types of artists that wanna see really dramatic changes in work. Because that’s not necessarily how public art’s set up.

Anastasia
Mmm-hmm

Elizabeth Lewis
And I think clients as well, they want to know what to expect in terms of an artwork outcome. So often where spend a lot of time with clients trying to help them understand that what they see in a render visually isn’t necessarily what the works. It’s just an impression. And so we’re trying to help them understand that there’s actually an artistic process.
You know, we, we put forward a concept in terms of what we are hoping to achieve, but there’s actually this whole process of design and conceptual thinking that happens beyond that. And through the making process, decisions are made that actually influence the outcome. And so we really try and condition clients as much as possible. That the artwork may in fact look different to what they were expecting. But that’s all part of working with an artist because you’re building a relationship. Yeah, it’s, it’s difficult because it is a different, I would expect that it’s a different dynamic for an artist working with that type of client as opposed to a institution or a gallery or someone else. It’s a different thing. Because those clients as well, sometimes we find our clients have absolutely no understanding of art, which is great. And it’s great when they’re enthusiastic about the potential for the art and what the art means for their place or for their building. And it’s great when they’re excited about it, but you’re sort of having to educate them about what the art needs to do and the importance of it alongside actually making the work. So there’s a lot of massaging through that whole process.

Anastasia
Mmm-hmm. Do you have any particularly memorable experiences when it comes to, say, fabrication, transport, installation of a project? or where something was not working or somebody was like, this is not what I thought it was going to be, or?

Elizabeth Lewis
yeah, I’m just trying to think of like a specific example that I could speak to. I think there’s always little things that are unexpected. When we work in kinetic works, so when it’s an artwork that moves and it changes its orientation and its composition over time. Just little things like everyone’s aware that it’s going to have a motor in it, but then no one really thinks that the motor is going to have a sound and that you might potentially hear that sound. You know? And so it’s those kind of things where it’s like, oh, and then perception of how noisy the artwork is. Or if an artwork’s on a facade and the wind hits it and it vibrates and the vibration has a sound or where you have a really reflective artwork and then sun hits that artwork at a particular time of day and it has glare. There’s all those kind of parameters that you can’t necessarily predict until they’re actually installed.

Anastasia
Mm-hmm.

Elizabeth Lewis
And until the people who are actually using that space start to respond to the work that you start to go, oh, that maybe didn’t quite hit the mark, or that was an unexpected positive or an unexpected limitation that you start, you know, like there’s lots of little things like that where the artwork starts to take on its own life when it’s in its place.
And, and it, it makes it difficult because then you’re trying to have to work back through stakeholders and encourage them to be accepting of things the way they are and how they landed and, and that that was an intentional outcome.
I think the best, the best thing is when we’ve been able to work with artists progressively over time on different scales and different types of work. We’ve started to get some really great working relationships with particular artists. And over time, you, you just create kind of a synergy of working and just a mutual understanding and. It means that you don’t have to necessarily think about commercial requirements anymore. Like the money isn’t the thing that you’re always talking about. It’s more just like, what are we going to do together that’s going to be really great? And that’s where it starts to really take on its own momentum and you start to get really great design outcomes because there’s just a really firm trust and understanding.

Anastasia
Yeah.

Elizabeth Lewis
But that’s only happened in recent years as we’ve started to get a lot more projects under our belt. Um, But I think the thing I’m always surprised about is just how long projects take.
Anastasia
So how long does the project take start to finish?
Elizabeth Lewis
Start to finish. I mean, you sort of set off and you say maybe 18 months, two years, but often you’ll have huge pauses of time and sometimes it extends to three years because something might happen with the site. And so they might be digging and then find something under the ground that they weren’t expecting. And then a whole heap of things change and. Or the, the artwork’s often one of the first things considered and designed for, and one of the last things to get installed. So you just have huge windows of time where things are constantly shifting, constantly changing.
But yeah, there’s some projects that we’ve had on the books for like four years, and we’re still waiting to close them out because things have happened with that particular site or that particular location. It’s beyond anyone’s control. So you sort of just sit on it. And that’s hard for an artist. It’s hard for an artist to stay enthusiastic over that amount of time for a project because they’ve usually moved on way beyond that.

Anastasia
Things change And Yeah.

Elizabeth Lewis
Their thinking’s changed, you know, and so they would kind of look at the work and say, well, that’s really old to them, you know?

Anastasia
Yeah. An old boring idea.

Elizabeth Lewis
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. and it’s hard as well because you don’t necessarily get to sit and celebrate the outcome because it’s. So long past when you were kind of set out on this thing,

Anastasia
Have you ever had to abandon a project?

Elizabeth Lewis
Uh, We haven’t.
There’s projects that have just kind of gone stagnant and we sort of, I wouldn’t like to say that they’re abandoned, but you kind of think, oh, it’s unlikely that they’re going to come back. Because you kind of just lost the relationship with that particular client or the site’s being sold or the artist has become disengaged or something along the project timeline has fallen out. I don’t think we’ve abandoned project or not finished a project for any specific reason. We generally tried to see everything through once we’re committed. Yeah.

Anastasia
Should public art be permanent? This is a conversation I’ve had with a couple of guests now, artists, and, one of the artists I’ve had on the show who does like architectural scale public art interventions and permanent works, he said like after having done a few works, he’s decided that he has to have a clause in the contract that he’s able to review, say every 10 years or so, the relevance of the work in the context.

Elizabeth Lewis
Yeah, it’s an interesting, it’s a very interesting question and I think it’s not something that’s very well understood by commissioning parties. Because the way the contracts and commissioning agreements are often written is that the client is buying the rights to that particular work. It’s almost written like they’re purchasing a work from a gallery, but it just happens to be within a particular site.
But I think there is something to be said around how the context of that place changes over time and how an artist and their thinking around the relevance of what they’re trying to say with that work actually responds to that site. So there was a work, I’m just thinking of an example at the moment.

[Image: Reko Rennie mural]
That was a Reko Rennie work up at Flinders Square. And it was only ever supposed to be a temporary work. And it was, if you’re familiar with it, it was a mural painted on a particular building and it was a government building. And it was only ever supposed to be a temporary work, but it ended up being in-situ for five years. And then that building was actually sold and it was going to become a place where there was going to be pokies And Reko by principal was like, well, I don’t want my work associated with a place that has that function,

Anastasia
that has gambling.

Elizabeth Lewis
Yeah. And so it was against his personal values and so the work was decommissioned. And I think that he was probably fortunate in a lot of ways because it was never supposed to be there for that amount of time anyway. But I think that there is something to be said around the association of a person’s work with what happens within that site context over time. And the control that an artist has over that is, I think, quite difficult for an artist to control. I would have to read into it a little bit more in terms of contractually how it is set up. I mean, an artist maintains their moral rights and their IP over the work, but in terms of how that then sits as the context changes, it’s, it’s difficult to navigate. But it is quite an interesting question.

Anastasia
Yeah. I feel like there’s definitely merit to that question and having that door somewhat open from both sides, to be able to review the work in the context over a period of time.

Elizabeth Lewis
Yeah.

Anastasia
It kind of seems to make sense, really. Not just from the artist’s perspective, but from the site’s perspective as well.

Elizabeth Lewis
Yeah, and I think just the way that our cities operate now is very different. Particularly when you’re thinking about like an urban place. You know, our cities specifically as opposed to regional cities. The rate of change is so rapid now that over a 10 to 15 year period, it’s a completely different thing.
How places interact and, and how you read work across the city. It’s just, it’s an interesting thing to consider is how the artwork kind of speaks to that. Yeah.

Anastasia
you mentioned that the lifespan of a work on average is 25 years. What happens after that? Like is there some contractual obligation to maintain the work, to restore it? What does that look like?

Elizabeth Lewis
Yeah, so the public art warranty period of 25 years, or the lifespan of a work for 25 years is tied to building warranties. So they’re directly, they directly speak to each other in that, you build a building and it has a warranty of 25 years in terms of it will perform and it won’t fall over. And everything that goes into the building follows the same set up, which is how you get the 25 year lifespan. But when you speak to artists, particularly, you know, in recent conversations with First Nations artists, they speak about artwork that’s intergenerational. And so they’re actually speaking about artwork that stands for a hundred years. Because for a First Nations person, a hundred years is not a very long time because they think in terms of the, the legacy of their people. And, and so their sense of scale and how long an artwork should exist for is very different to say, a contemporary artist that goes through iterations of work and different cycles of time in much shorter time scales.

Anastasia
Mm-hmm.

Elizabeth Lewis
So it’s just even different types of artists will have a different understanding of how long the work should exist for and what should happen to it after it’s decommissioned.
The idea is that the artwork is maintained and it’s the client’s responsibility to maintain the work throughout that period of time. Which again, really has to speak to the calibre of the clients that you work with in terms of how much they actually value the artwork and the contribution that the artwork’s making to their place.
And so that’s something that you really have to tease out in the very early conversations. It’s like, well, what is this artwork actually doing? And what’s the purpose of it? And how are you gonna maintain it and look after it and make sure that it maintains its integrity over that period of time? And then there’s a whole contractual thing around what happens to the work when it’s decommissioned. Whether or not the artist or the artist’s representatives can purchase the work or, you know, there’s a whole kind of suite of options, I guess, in terms of the decommissioning of the work. But that’s not actually something that I’ve yet been on the other side of.

Anastasia
Mm-hmm.

Elizabeth Lewis
I’m, I guess I’m still too early in the phase of things to really see what happens to work that perhaps Tilt’s been involved in that is decommissioned.
Yeah.

Anastasia
What’s something you wish all clients who commission a public artwork knew or considered?

Elizabeth Lewis
There’s a few things. I think that there needs to be a recognition, I guess, at the outset that, although an artist is surrounded by a team, they are essentially working with an individual and an artist only has so much capacity and so much bandwidth, and they really need to ensure that that artist has a really well supported team so that the vision can be realised.
And that even comes down to like time management commitment, their commercial aptitude, their willingness to be involved in the process. And you know, there’s a lot that kind of goes into commissioning a work in understanding that you are working with a person and we need to create a relationship. They don’t have a, a company behind them necessarily to support them.

Anastasia
It’s not like a bit studio. Yeah, yeah,

Elizabeth Lewis
yeah. yeah. They’re generally a solo artist that’s got 10 other things on the go that’s trying to find a studio space to work and trying to, you know, there’s lots of things that they’re trying to navigate. And so even from a contracts perspective, we’re trying to help clients set up contracts and commission the work with artists in a really friendly and open way so that artists feel protected in that kind of setup.
I think that what clients, I mean, it depends when you think about it, I could, there’s, I wouldn’t say that there’s a typical client as such, but I think that. there’s so much missed opportunity at the moment in the public art space in terms of the types of work, like the typologies.

Anastasia
How do you mean?

Elizabeth Lewis
So I think that there’s somewhat a really strong understanding from a client in terms of a type of artist that you would work with in the public art space. Like you’re working with a sculptor or you’re working with someone that has a really specific practice that they can anticipate the outcome. And what I’m hoping that Tilt can do over time is to build this sort of understanding with clients that there’s artists who don’t traditionally sit within a bucket that you would pull in and use as a public art commission, but they have a really interesting understanding of that particular place. You know, they might be a poet or they might be a musician, or they might be like a botanist or someone who’s not a traditional public art commissioning per, like someone that you would typically see. But that we can create these artist teams and these networks that actually lead to really interesting artwork so that we don’t get these really typical responses, where it’s not straight up a sculpture or it’s not interpreted, you know, you walk into a building and you go, well, there’s the art and there’s the, you know, where the art actually becomes really infused in a place.
I can understand why we’ve landed where we have in this space because, the commissioning process has very much been: conceptually you go to an artist, they come up with an idea, you go to a fabricator, they make their thing and then you install it. And I think what we’re trying to dismantle a little bit is that we can help work with architects and work with the landscape team and actually become part of the design cooperative in a sense, and become a bit of a working group so that the art can actually be infused everywhere. And it can speak kind of artistic language that supplements the architectural language and that they speak to each other. As opposed to artwork that’s commissioned
very much in isolation of that process. Yeah, so I would like to hope that clients can start to see the artist as a key design driver. They’re very familiar with going out and seeking an architect. To, to get their buildings up and developed and work through that process. That’s very normal for them. But it’s like, well, you could bring an artist in earlier and create partnerships that could actually be quite interesting.

Anastasia
Yeah. So mentioned curators in this process. So there’s actually like curators for public art out there.

Elizabeth Lewis
Yes.Yeah.

Anastasia
And do they have like binders full of artists who are like, yep, these people make public art, or do they have a similar approach to you guys where you’re mentioning like, working with poets and musicians and, you know, not just traditionally visual artists to create public work?

Elizabeth Lewis
Yeah, I think we’ve worked and we, we do work with some amazing public art curators and they’ve all got varying levels of experience, but also I, I guess in a sense, personal, approaches to how they actually curate work. And I think often a public art curator is engaged by a developer, or engaged by a government organization.
And where they’re sort of first brought into the process is they start right at the very beginning of scoping of the opportunity. So the developer, for example, might identify that they need to commission a public artwork as a part of their DA submission. So they’ll often go to a public art curator or consultant specifically to help in that scoping phase to actually identify where the public art might go, what the curatorial framework might be what an artist brief might look like.
And part of that process is they’ll often identify a long list of artists who might be appropriate for that particular place.
and that might be because they’re local to the area or their work speaks to the particular curatorial framework or themes that have been identified. Or they might just be a particular artist that has a interesting material palette.
They might be something that just resonates with that particular brief. And then a public art consultant will often work through the curation process, where they’ll go out and they’ll shortlist artists and then they’ll help artists respond to the artistic brief and come up with concepts and then present those back to the client and help the client make a decision around who the right artist might be for that particular job.
In terms of how public art consultants build their network of artists, I think that it’s probably informed by a lot of things. It’s probably informed by their own research and understanding. So I know that public art consultants spend a lot of time working through gallery networks. So they’ll often go and spend time with all the local galleries and get to know the stable of artists that are on particular galleries’ books to understand
an artist’s appetite for doing public artwork, their availability, what their fees might be, and whether or not the opportunity that the public art consultant has is appropriate for that artist.
’cause you know, more established artists may not be able to work on certain commissions because it might just not be aligned with what they’re doing career wise.
So I think that they sort of spend a lot of time building their network in that kind of way. I think what public art consultants are really good at is identifying emerging artists and being able to see, I guess, trends in Australian contemporary art in terms of, what new stories or what new lens needs to be told at a particular point in time? I think it’s quite interesting. Like Barbara Flynn is a really fantastic public art consultant who has a really research driven approach to commissioning work. And a lot of her previous public art development applications are actually publicly available.
So it’s something that you could research and download some of her public art plans just to get a sense of how she structures them and put some all together. Like, it’s, It’s kind of interesting if you’re an artist wanting to get into the space to understand the difference between how different art consultants, because they do have very different approaches.

Anastasia
Mm-hmm.

Elizabeth Lewis
Yeah. So it’s, a lot that way. But I would say that public art consultants, I guess this is a really blanket statement and I’m sure that there’s exceptions to this, but I would say that
public art consultants are generally still sticking within the visual arts as they’re commissioning work.
Um, I think that there’s probably still a bit of a gap between what’s perhaps happening in an institution level in terms of different mediums and different ways of approaching work than what’s happening in the public art realm. It’s still a little bit separated, but I think there also just hasn’t been a huge appetite for understanding how artists teams operate either. It’s really been about commissioning a singular artist to develop a work. It’s like, well, I’m commissioning, and it’s in some ways, depending on the profile of the client or where the work’s going. It’s really like who’s the biggest name artist you can commission to do this particular job? You know? And so it doesn’t necessarily leave a lot of space for experimentation that an institution or a gallery space offers. Because it’s usually all privately funded.

Anastasia
Mm-hmm.

Elizabeth Lewis
I think where we’re seeing really interesting collaborations and different types of artists entering the space is in the First Nations indigenous work. So when you speak to Aboriginal artists, by nature, they don’t have necessarily a singular practice. So they might be a painter, but just by the nature of how they are entwined with their culture, they’re generally just storytellers.
And so the story can be told in any number of different ways, and that can be through words and through language. It can be through song and dance, it can be through painting, it can be through sculpture. So I think if you look at an Aboriginal artist and you think of them as this really multidisciplinary creative person that’s just wanting to tell these stories and I kind of think of them as like such an interesting… because I would say that they’re poets and I would say that their language is really intrinsic to how they tell their stories.
And so I think that as more work gets commissioned, we’ll see really interesting outcomes. And I think that they’ll actually path the way. I think they’ll really set a really strong course in terms of what public art can be because it’s so culturally significant.

Anastasia
Mm, that sounds exciting.

Elizabeth Lewis
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like the more we work with The more we work with First Nations artists and aboriginal artists, the more you just think, oh, it’s just so fascinating, you know? And there’s just so much to learn and it’s just, it’s amazing. Like, it’s a really amazing experience. and they’re so generous in what they share and, and how they go about that sharing process. it’s really quite interesting. And our experience is that they are really interested in how their ideas can be translated into really different outcomes.
Because, like I said, their practice isn’t specific to a particular thing. They haven’t necessarily gone to art school and led this really traditional path.
They’ve kind of got this really organic, really fluid way of interpreting things. And that’s been handed down through generations. And I just think, how rich is that? And how, how great is that for our community that we get to really experience that.

Anastasia
you mentioned something about how public art’s coming into its own in the last five years.
what’s that all about? How come?

Elizabeth Lewis
Uh, I think that… I mean, I’m probably speaking from an experience of being in Sydney specifically, and I just think that the growth of Sydney, and particularly with the Metro networks and with what’s happening with Western Sydney Airport and various other kind of, and Parramatta is the second growth city, you know, with Western Sydney University and all the banks and various institutions setting up separate arms out in Parramatta and that becoming a city in itself, like we’ve just had so much growth and it’s been significant cultural investment in these types of programs and infrastructure.
And I think that we’ll start to see it up in Newcastle and we’ll start to see it down south and we’ll start to really see this broadening of how place is thought about and how these places develop. And culturally, what that means for communities that exist there now, but also for people that will move into those areas and either live or work. It’s becoming far more, hopefully far more diverse and just different ways of working through that.
I think that’s what’s been really interesting when we’ve done work in Western Sydney is because that’s traditionally been quite a migrant area. And so now that the infrastructure and the money has started to actually go into those areas, it’s just been so fantastic to start to see those people that have migrated to Australia and they’re able to now tell their stories through art, around what it means for them to be from a different culture, but to be living in Sydney.
And that’s, to me it’s just like, this is just really, really interesting and really fascinating and. Lots of emerging artists and you know, there’s great opportunity there. Yeah, so I think that the emergence of public art and the importance of public art has been pushed by spending and money that’s been really funneled into these growth opportunities.
Yeah, it’s, it’s exciting to kind of watch it all unfold.

Anastasia
Yeah. I think what you mentioned is really important. there’s a real richness in embracing the diversity of Australian population and like just the multitude of cultures, the indigenous culture, all of those things together are what make it such an exciting place.

Elizabeth Lewis
Yeah. It’s like a real, it’s A bit of a tapestry.

Anastasia
Yeah.

Elizabeth Lewis
You know, and it’s like this layering of understanding and cultures and yeah. I think for me, I’m like, that’s exciting. It’s exciting that those stories can start to be told and that people who then live in their area, they see themselves in the work that’s being surrounded by them. They can identify and they can go, yeah, that’s from my culture and that makes sense that that’s here. ’cause that’s where I live.
Yeah, I think it’s, it’s great.

Anastasia
Unfortunately there isn’t a suburb full of Estonians in Sydney,
No. so I can’t…

Elizabeth Lewis
Have to just put your foot down and um, make it happen.

Anastasia
Yeah.
Can you highlight a particularly rewarding experience that you’ve had in your career so far?

Elizabeth Lewis
I wouldn’t say there’s a particular pinpointed experience. I think that when I reflect back on 10 years ago, when I started and then even sort of five years ago when I really started to move into the public art space, it felt like people still didn’t really understand why industrial design was important. And they still didn’t really understand, well, what is it? I don’t even really understand. What is that you do? And I think it took a long time for me personally to really articulate and to really understand the value of being an industrial designer and to have that particular thinking. And I think particularly probably in recent kind of years, it’s like, no, the more I talk about it and now people are actually understanding. There’s a really strong design drive and there’s a real place for industrial design thinking in the public art space, or in the architecture space and we’re solving problems.
And for me, I’m like, that’s great. ‘ cause I just think around industrial design as a discipline and what that means for new generations of people, like kids who want to come through and do the industrial design course. And it’s typically thought of as really hard to get a job and that that there’s not…

Anastasia
Really!?

Elizabeth Lewis
Yeah. And that there’s, you know, it’s just not well understood.

Anastasia
As an artist, anything that has design or engineering in it, I’m like, shocking. Surely that’s like straight out of school you get a job, that’s it.

Elizabeth Lewis
No It’s not, it’s, and I think it’s because industrial design is typically thought of product design and a lot of product manufacturer is done overseas, so it’s usually, you know, we are not, we don’t manufacture necessarily in Australia. And so this idea of not being able to make things here puts up a lot of barriers for what people think is actually possible. And it’s like, well no industrial design at its core there’s a design thinking methodology. There’s a problem solving process that you undergo. And it’s really powerful to be able to actually
design things and then make them.

Anastasia
Yeah.

Elizabeth Lewis
And to be able to have a skill set that enables you to be able to do that. And so I think the thing that I’m kind of really happy about for my own career is to be able to come this far along and to be like, no, I’m still, even though I’m not on the tools and I’m not in CAD designing stuff like the rest of the team, it’s like I’m still using those skills and those principles every day in the way that I talk to artists and the way that I get teams up and rolling and the way that we facilitate a process. It’s very much at the heart of industrial design.
And for me, that’s something that I’m glad that it’s still being able to hold onto that. And I’m glad that the people we’re working with are now starting to really come full circle and be like, yeah, there is value here

Anastasia
Is it sometimes hard to convince developers that they have to spend that, what is it 1%? Their budget on something called art. Are they still a bit reluctant about that?
Elizabeth Lewis
reluctant? I think that there’s reluctance when they don’t understand the objective. Like for them, it’s like if it’s just a policy that then they have to carry out this policy. I think it kind of goes back to perhaps what I mentioned earlier and trying to help a client understand what that can contribute to their place

Anastasia
Yeah.

Elizabeth Lewis
and what that kind of means for, it’s like it’s the art can be the anchoring that helps to hold your building in its context. Because it responds to everything that’s going on around it. And it provides that kind of platform. And that’s something that the community can engage with and can understand. And that gives meaning, you know, it provides a sense of meaning. And so you do spend a bit of time still educating clients around why that’s important and to not look at it as a figure, but it’s actually has deeper value.
And then we do spend time talking about the money side of things and trying to help them understand where you can offset the cost of the public art investment. You know, if you are having a water feature that’s already a part of your landscape plan where we can put art within the water feature, and then it can become this really beautiful interpretation that has deeper meaning, but it’s using infrastructure that you are already investing in anyway. And so there’s lots of ways that we can talk to developers or talk to clients around the offsetting of funds and to really extract as much value as possible.

Anastasia
Mm-hmm.

Elizabeth Lewis
But I think they’ve all accepted the fact that they have to do it. It’s just what kind of outcome they’re actually seeking is where it becomes interesting. Because I, I think for us our values would say that we are not interested in doing public art that doesn’t have integrity and isn’t ambitious. So for me, first and foremost, it’s like, don’t call it art if you haven’t engaged an artist, it has to be done by an artist. And if an artist hasn’t been paid and hasn’t been involved, well it’s not art. So it’s even just core principles like that that I think you just become really strong and really, really protective of making sure that the art’s always good and always reaching an outcome that you can be proud of for the artist and for everybody involved. I think, you know, that kind of speaks to, to core values in a lot of ways, and you just have to align yourself with the right clients.

Anastasia
Amen. if you could do anything, no restrictions for like, location, budget. Do you have a dream project that you would love to work on?

Elizabeth Lewis
it’s a really big question. I probably do have a really great answer if I about it.
I think what a dream project looks like for me is something that’s multilayered in the value that it brings. So I’m really interested in public art that has a deeper meaning from a research perspective. So for example, we were looking at a memorial project recently, and I was really interested in academics who had studied memorial design at its principle and at its heart in terms of what actually resonates with survivors or resonates with families that have been affected by a particular tragedy.

Anastasia
Mm-hmm.

Elizabeth Lewis
And so there’s research principles that academics have kind of done to look into the importance of memorials and what that means. And what I’m really interested in is how public art and artistic language sits in an overlay to that underlying research and how the two interplay. And so how it’s like, well this artwork is important for more than just an artistic expression. It’s important for these deep-seeded research questions that it answers. And for me, I’m really interested in that interplay. And so I think an ideal project for me would be around working in a really diverse, multidisciplinary team where there’s a core question at the heart of it that we’re all trying to answer.
And I would want that question to be really wicked in a sense in that like, I want it to be a really challenging question that gets to the heart of why we do what we do. But that’s what I’m seeking. I’m seeking a project that’s extremely challenging because we are trying to answer a question that’s quite difficult to answer.
But I think that that’s the power of art. Art can answer really difficult questions. But I’m interested in the kind of team that surrounds that process. That’s kind of, for me personally, kind of what. And I’ve seen some really great examples where artists have started to work in those realms.
And it’s almost on the fringe between art and design and social science and it sits across all these kind of interplays. But what’s really great I think is then it, it gets put into the public domain, which often isn’t common. You know, a lot of these kind of questions are answered in institutions, like they’re answered in universities, or they’re answered in formal gallery settings, or they’re answered in spaces that maybe aren’t approachable for the general public. And so by answering these questions and then putting it out into a public domain, I think that that’s, that’s quite interesting for me.

Anastasia
Mm-hmm. Sounds like you’re into like, essentially conceptual art, like maybe research based, socially engaged, but conceptual.

Elizabeth Lewis
Yeah, I think so. Yeah. Yeah. I think that’s heading in the right direction. Yeah.

Anastasia
Yeah. Yeah. Love that. I know we’ve touched on this before, but let’s revisit that again because there are no doubt several artists listening to this right now who would like to make a public artwork or more than one, just get into that medium, but who just don’t know where to even start. What advice do you have for them and how can they find their own Tilt wherever they live? And their own support to get something off the ground?

Elizabeth Lewis
Yeah, I think about this more and more because I would’ve, perhaps a few years ago I would’ve said, oh, just start applying for open EOIs. Like open expression of interests. Because they’re opportunities that exist and there’s money there, and you should just give it a go. And now I think I’ve been through that process so many times with artists.
Like, I couldn’t tell you how many EOIs I’ve done over the course of however many years. And that process is really exhausting and it’s really difficult, particularly for an artist that’s not experienced.

Anastasia
It’s very daunting.

Elizabeth Lewis
Yeah. And I don’t, I don’t know if it necessarily gets you where you need to go. So in considering the question in more simpler terms, I think that what I would do if I was in that situation, knowing what I know is I would almost set up my own test site type program.
So in Melbourne they have a public art program, which is called Test Sites. And so they offer up sites throughout Melbourne to do temporary, I think they’re may be three or six month programs where you get to test ideas in a public domain. In a temporary type way, but it’s supported, I think it’s a City of Melbourne initiative and yeah, it’s called Test Sites, so that’s something worth looking into.
But I, I think a program like that, whether that existed in your own city, for me, I’m like, that’s something that at a grassroots way, you could start yourself. Because I think what you really wanna understand moving into the public art space is how the public actually responds to your work.
And so you almost just have to start putting stuff out there and seeing how that responds and how that happens. And unfortunately, things have changed a little bit in Sydney where we used to have Sculptures By The Sea and we used to have Vivid and we used to have these kind of events that were much more accessible for emerging artists, but they’ve become, over the years, they’ve become much more touristic and they’re now

Anastasia
commercial.

Elizabeth Lewis
they’re much more commercial and I think they’re kind of run by Place Making New South Wales. And it just has a different purpose now. But they used to be really good events for emerging artists, or not even emerging artists, like just established artists that wanted to test ideas in a new scale and a new parameter. so I think those types of things are really good.
And in some ways I’m, I almost feel like you need to just carve out your own opportunities in a way, which is difficult, I know, because it all costs money and it’s all time and, and all of those things. But that’s, I guess how I would approach it at that kind of level, because I think you need to have a really strong understanding of your own practice and what it means to work in the public domain. So that then when you put forward ideas for EOIs and those public briefs, you’ve got a really good understanding around how your ideas translate in that sense.
I think the other way that you could… you, can just approach public art consultants as well and just get feedback. Because they’re pretty good at telling you how a client might respond to your work. But they’re ultimately curating for a particular type client and a particular client model. And some artist’s work is just going to fit in that model. And some artist’s work just isn’t, but they can often guide you at that level if you can find someone who’s willing to give some time and, and be open to that. But I think it’s unfortunately, just like anything, you really just need to start to carve out some space and start to test those ideas and just try and find local government grants that enable you to do that.

Anastasia
Mm-hmm. Well, I think that’s Good advice. Hopefully somebody listening will have an idea of like, oh yeah, I could do that.

Elizabeth Lewis
Yeah. Like, I’d love to see that idea of test sites that they’ve got in Melbourne seen more broadly. I think that it’s a really good initiative and I’m sure City of Sydney has similar, they’ve got Art and About and those types of programs.

Anastasia
Yeah, they do. Yeah, that’s right. That’s an opportunity to propose work for a public space that’s temporary.

Elizabeth Lewis
Yeah.
And I think that that’s a great way to get in because what you’re really trying to understand is just putting an artwork out for the open public versus putting an artwork out for a gallery context is totally different thing.

Anastasia
Yeah. I remember looking at an EOI I for a public art project, and it was just too daunting for an emerging artist to be like, well, I don’t know what materials I can use. sure, I’ll say that it’s made of steel, but I don’t know how to make something so big out of steel. So, you know, like how do you put that in the budget? And all those questions for a young artist are just okay. No. But yeah, I’ve worked with some people who kind of a similar idea to what you mentioned and also to sculpture by the sea. There’s this Australian guy in Estonia who loved the initial sculpture by the sea concept and brought that to Estonia, making these itinerant public art exhibitions. Where you just make projects in the public space, temporary obviously, but Yeah. And that’s a great way for artists to Yeah, first get into that whole idea. Try their hand at something. And then you also got support from that person organizing the whole thing To figure out what materials you’re going to use. You don’t have to think about, I mean, obviously the budgets were minuscule. It was all very kind of DIY, but. But it was, yeah, great opportunity. Like that’s how I can say yeah, I’ve done some public art stuff. You know? So I hope there will be more initiatives like that around the world. ’cause it’s, yeah, it’s not, it’s not so common.

Elizabeth Lewis
No, it’s not common. Yeah. And I like, I can understand there’s lots of challenges in terms of producing events at that kind of scale as well. You know, there’s lots of considerations in terms of safety and

Anastasia
Yeah.

Elizabeth Lewis
just the infrastructure required to actually host the kind of somewhat temporary public art event type things. I can appreciate the challenges associated with that.

Anastasia
I think there are places that. Are easier for that. Like Australia is very bureaucratic. There’s a lot of health and safety regulations. So, you know, it’s a lot more challenging. Like Estonia is definitely an easier place for stuff like that. No doubt. Where you can put like this long line through the centre of the city where people walk right over it and no one’s going like, oh, well what if somebody trips over it? Or, you know?

Elizabeth Lewis
Yeah,

Anastasia
yeah.

Elizabeth Lewis
Yeah. I was just thinking again around other advice and I, I think the other thing that, when I think of artists that have successfully transitioned from a gallery, like a studio based practice, and they’ve successfully transitioned and delivered public artwork, the two kind of sit, complimentary to each other. So it’s not like they’re two separate practices, they’re two practices. Reader’s, kind of one artist’s work, but I think the artists that have really excelled and probably been selected when they have pitched for work is they’ve really understood the site context and how their own work translates to that site context.
And that might be through an openness to do community consultation, or it might be through an openness to work with particular stakeholders that perhaps like their studio practice they wouldn’t have to do that, but it’s like they’re open to the adaption of their work and the interpretation of their work in a new way.
And so I would even just start to encourage artists who want to move into the public domain. It’s like, why don’t you pick a place that’s your community and start that co-design process where you might set yourself your own project? And you might go, I’m going to go and engage with a particular community group or a particular you know, something that’s within that and actually go through that process of having to engage and have your artwork be informed by other stakeholders.
Because I think you’ll be surprised by the outcome. But that’s a good way to say, yeah, I have, gone through that and I have let my work be influenced by a place because I think that that’s a key attribute that now sits within a public art work. It’s a common criteria that’s asked for is community consultation.

Anastasia
I think installation artists are especially open to that idea. Because most of the time our work is site specific.

Elizabeth Lewis
Yeah. And it’s engaged with by the public. Yeah.

Anastasia
Yeah.
Great. Is there something that I didn’t ask you that you’d like to mention?

Elizabeth Lewis
I think the main thing is whenever we embark on a new project or we review a new opportunity, it’s like there has to be a trigger of joy in there. And if the work doesn’t speak to you in a joyful way or if something feels off, there’s probably a really good reason why it feels not right. And so there’s often an underlying gut feeling around how our project’s going to go. and I think that that’s really intrinsic to how the project unfolds. So I um, yeah, I, I think that from the outset now, and I think this is definitely just based on experience, probably within the first few interactions on a project, with an artist and with, you know, you do a few meetings and you do a few things. Like, I, I have a really strong sense of how it’s going to go. And I think that that’s something that experience brings you in this space. So I would encourage artists or whoever’s listening to not be daunted by those challenges what they just need to find is good people to work with because you have to have those relationships. Because that’s what’s going to carry you through a project. And you pick up so many new skills along the way and you’re forever involving and learning. And, but yeah, it really comes down to the people that you’re working with.

Anastasia
Yeah, I hear that. I think artists are also quite attuned, especially when you are having to work with other people and collaborate on a project.

Elizabeth Lewis
Yeah.

Anastasia
I feel like we are attuned to the vibes.

Elizabeth Lewis
Yeah.

Anastasia
And if it feels right, it’s really great.

Elizabeth Lewis
Yeah, Yeah.

Anastasia
Yeah. It’s, it’s important. I think for me, my personal experience, the best projects to work on have always been with people who understand how to support artists.
And it’s, it is a skill like you said, and it’s amazing that there’s so many people in the art world who work with artists but haven’t quite got it.
And when you have it… the guests I’ve spoken to as well, they say that’s the most amazing moment when all the people in the project are like, yes, we need to get this done and everyone’s on board. Yeah, you don’t have to be always agreeing, but it’s the best feeling when you know that there’s the support and they really get it.

Elizabeth Lewis
Yeah.
Then you just want to sense that you’re all heading in the same direction.

Anastasia
Yeah.

Elizabeth Lewis
Which I, I guess, speaks earlier to what I was saying around core values. You really need to find people to work with that value, what you value.

Anastasia
Mm. Yeah. It’s all about that really when you’re working with people, especially if it takes like three years.

Elizabeth Lewis
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.

Anastasia
Yeah.

Elizabeth Lewis
I, I guess the only other thing that I would say that maybe we haven’t touched on a lot is the commercial side of projects. I spend a lot of time talking about money with artists and some artists are really happy to talk about money and other artists have no idea what’s going on. And other artists are fearful of budgets and all that kind of thing. And I, I think that only thing I would encourage artists to be their own advocates for transparency around budgets and how budgets are shared and split and what their fee means and what they get from their fee and what the requirements for them are. I think that just to develop kind of a bit more of a commercial and business acumen from artists working in that space would probably do them a world of of good in a sense. Because it can get quite challenging to navigate. Yeah.

Anastasia
What should artists be looking out for and asking for in that sense?

Elizabeth Lewis
so Nava they recommend that an artist fee for a public artwork should be, they have it sort of on a sliding scale, but we typically would sort of say 20% of a public art nominated budget should go to the artist and that fee, obviously encapsulates all their conceptual input and so their IP and everything that goes around actually formulating the idea and, and providing the idea and handing the idea over to the client.
For some artists, the artist being might also include making. So if there’s an element of the work that they will make or that they’ll contribute to through ma a making process. But it’s really just good for them to understand and for the client to understand and for us and whoever else is involved, to actually where their scope starts and stops and what the requirements, the core requirements of the artist are on their fee.
The other thing is, for us at Tilt, we run a commercial model where we aim for transparency as much as possible so that the artist can actually make decisions about how material fabrication budgets are spent. So that they can dictate the scale of the work and make decisions around, well, you can either have a hundred at this size in this material, or you can have 20 at this size in this material. So there’s opportunities for an artist to be involved in making conceptual decisions that are actually tied to money.
And for them to be happily involved in that process. I think it’s important to give some sort of agency to the artist in that discussion, so that it’s not separated.
But artists obviously have varying levels of experience in terms of how to negotiate and how to talk to those things. So again, I guess it just similar to the question around, well, how do we even get into public art to start with? I think there’s certain artists that we work with that know that they’re a business and they treat the work like a business. And then there’s other artists that just are completely the other way. And then there’s some artists that have gallery representation and that the gallery kind of run that process. So there’s all different commercial setups and different ways that artists navigate the space, but I think it’s something that for artists moving into the space, nine times out of 10, you’ll have to collaborate because it will be very difficult for you to deliver the work on your own.
But you sort of just need to be aware that there’s all these discussions and things that are going to happen with money. And they have to just find a way to get through it and ask for support where they need support, ask for clarity, ask for confirmation, ask for what they need.
But commercial discussions are something that I talk about daily and, and it doesn’t necessarily get easier. You just kind of get used to it. But it’s, yeah, I think it’s just something because the budgets can get quite big as well, so.

Anastasia
Yeah. Is the budget actually set pretty much from the beginning or does it change?

Elizabeth Lewis
So the budget’s usually set from the very beginning, and that’s usually based on that 1% investment where the developer will know how much they actually need to put into the public artwork. So yeah, the budget’s usually known from the beginning. And that’s where we help the artists through that, particularly through the concept development phase, to help them understand what can conceptually be delivered for the budget. So help them scale appropriately, help them pick materials that are appropriate for the budget and work through that whole process. But you’re forever making decisions that are tied to money throughout a whole project. And so, I guess for an artist, they just need to be aware that that’s something that gets spoken about a lot.

Anastasia
About the proposal process. So if you are in that EOI process, submitting a proposal to a commissioner, should artists expect to be paid for that when they’re collaborating with like a industrial designer or an advisor or someone like that? Or is that just out of pocket kind of process?

Elizabeth Lewis
so the concept development phase, so if you’re shortlisted and you’re one of three artists, for example, that it’s been invited to put forward a concept, there is usually a concept fee that will be paid and it’s usually a 1% of the total budget, or, you know, something along those lines where if it’s a $500,000 commission, it might be $5,000 is paid to develop a concept.
When we work with artists through that concept development phase, so we’re often developing the visuals and we’re developing the actual pack that then we’ll get submitted, we usually do that in collaboration, so we actually usually split the budget and split that fee equally, and we kind of go, well, it’s equal contribution equally invested, and we just split it.
Yeah.
But the fee by no means like it’s seen very much in the, in the market as I guess, a token. It doesn’t really reflect the amount of time that goes into preparing that. And it doesn’t really, in a sense, pay for the idea that’s generated necessarily. But at the moment, unfortunately, it’s the way that the procurement model is generally set up and accepted by clients. I don’t think it’s necessarily best practice. Because those packs generally can take 200 hours to put together, which is a huge investment from everyone involved in order to have an attempt at winning the job. So I, I think that there is ways that the procurement model can be made fairer and better for everybody involved. Yeah, I think that there’s a few different ways that that can be challenged. But yeah, it’s a huge investment of time to go through those processes.

Anastasia
Yeah. For both parties.

Elizabeth Lewis
Yeah.

Antastasia
Mm-hmm.
Tell me what are you working on right now?

Elizabeth Lewis
Working on a few projects, some that can’t talk about openly, but um, we’ve just finished going through the design development pack with Janet Laurence for commission out at Bradfield Park, which has been very exciting and a great opportunity. We’ve been working with Aspect, so landscape architects there.
So that’s been fantastic and really collaborative process with some First Nations artists being brought into the project. We’re working on quite a few projects with some indigenous artists, which has been really exciting and really great. We just installed work last week with an artist, Warren Langley, who we’ve worked with quite a number of times. He’s a very established artist. He’s been in the game for about 40 years. But we’ve had a working relationship for maybe three or four years. We’ve just installed his work last week and finishing up a project with Jacob Nash at Surry Hills Village a couple of weeks ago as well. So on the tail end of some projects, just trying to wrap them up before the end of the year.
Yeah, so there’s a lot, a lot happening and then we are pitching for a whole new round of work coming up. So. Lots in the pipeline. Lots to be excited about. That’s great.

Antastasia
So where can people see some examples of your work?

Elizabeth Lewis
So we are filtered all around Sydney and in Melbourne. A couple of jobs over in Perth as well that you can see us. Check out our website, check out our Instagram.

Antastasia
Tell us the website.

Elizabeth Lewis
We are Tilt Industrial Design. If you Google us, we’ll come up, you’ll find us. We’re a team of about 50 people now. Industrial designers, engineers, a couple of architects in there as well. So really diverse group with many different skill sets. We’ve got a studio in Sydney and Melbourne and we’d be really excited to speak to artists who are looking at coming into the public art realm. And yeah. Hope to meet lots more people at and, and about.

Anastasia
Great, well, I’ll put the link to your website and Instagram in the show notes so people can go and check out what you’ve done, see what’s going on. Yeah.

Elizabeth Lewis
Thanks for having me.

Anastasia
Thank you. It was very, very interesting. I hope people have learned something and maybe got inspired to go out there and make that public art project happen that they’ve been thinking about for ages. So Yeah, it’s not impossible.

Elizabeth Lewis
It’s not impossible.